Nick Norelli posted links to Michael L. Brown’s radio program Line of Fire on Calvinism vs. Arminianism. I have previously heard him in person years ago and enjoy his passion for Christ. I love listening to theological concepts like these being thrashed around. It can shake up our comfortable theology.
Debate between Calvinism vs Arminianism
Am I missing something? Every reference to predestination I found in the Bible implied that God predestined a blessing or a result. For example, we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Or we are chosen in Him to be holy and without blame. I do not see anywhere that predestination is God choosing who will believe in Jesus. Can anyone help me?
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Kevin, I am glad you brought this up. Actually, considering that the Bible affirms both our freewill in choosing God, and yet that God chose us, we not having chose him in some sense, one who is faithful to the Scripture would be obliged to assume that there was a fusion. There is. The “Arminian” embraces common sense but rejects some references in the Bible, whereas the Calvinist rejects common sense and even some references in the Bible. The fusion of freewill in choosing God, and God’s sovereignty concerning predestination: Molinism — after the Spanish Jesuit theologian Luis Molina (1535-1600). Go to reasonablefaith.org and type “molinist” or even “Molina” in the search bar to find articles by Christian philosopher William Lane Craig to learn about it. Molinism requires a nimble mind to comprehend which is probably why it is not very well-known.
Specifically, this is a good article: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5220 But the link won’t work until you log in. It is worth it.
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Thanks Jared. I read the article. Yes, it does require one to understand this more deeply than just looking at what’s on the surface. Thank you.
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Dk, from your site, I gather you prefered to discuss theology intelligently rather than take potshots at someone else’s?
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“In God’s math… 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 And these three are one…”
LOL
Seriously though. Do the Trinitarians a favour and study the Trinity before going around pasting this nonsense.
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There is, in fact, a unique Biblical ground that exist between the two extremes of Arminianism and Calvinism. Professor Gordon Olsen has coined the term: Mediate Theology. This is a coherent Biblical view developed inductively from the study of scripture. It is a totally distinct, cohesive, and viable system that stands on its own integrity, intermediate between the two opposing and extreme views of God’s sovereignty versus man’s free will.
Check it out at: Mediate Theology
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Is it me, or when you see the intense people that try to spin their webs of theology so tight, doesn’t it amaze you? Isn’t it odd that it is ALWAYS men? You guys never find that puzzling, eh?
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Sabio, maybe men tend to be thinkers rather than feelers. We tend to think too much…so much that we no longer know what is truth. But maybe truth is not easy to discern, perhaps impossible to discern. But anyhow, it’s fun.
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Indeed !
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Amos shows us that when you really want to believe, nothing can stop you !
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Kevin
Tulips?
I’m into Rose’s and lilies myself.
Song 0f solomon 2:1
I am the rose of Sharon, and the lily of the valleys.
I mean Jesus.
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Kevin
Why can’t they both be true?
Why isn’t Jesus enough?
In God’s math… 1 + 1 + 1 = 1 And these three are one…
Predestination + Free Will = Jesus
Col 1:17
And he is before “all things,” (Predestination + Free Will?)
and by him “all things” consist. (Predestination + Free Will?)
Col 1:18
…that in “all things” (Predestination + Free Will?)
he might have “the preeminence.”
preeminence = to be first, hold the first place.
Jesus = First Place in All Things.
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Suggest You read “The Restoration of Christianity”, now in english, by Michael Servetus (Translated from Latin to English by Hilliar/Hoffman).
In this magnus opus, Calvin’s doctrine is exposed for what it is … a very Augustinian and Islamic view of God. Just my opinion.
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Wow, 2 years later — I am so glad I am still subscribed to this thread.
I never heard of the Augustine-Muslim influence on Calvinism. Do you have any links supporting this view besides this translation?
Fascinating.
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A.Amos, I wish there can be a middle position. Some say there is a middle ground. I don`t think Calvinists or Arminians necessarily have the perfect theology. Like you, I think both theologies have a solid scriptural basis to back up their positions.
Here is what I think is a middle ground position: God wills that all should be saved, but has predestined some to receive salvation because some choose to reject God`s grace.
Previously, I was leaning more toward Arminianism but recently have been much more open to the Calvinist understanding with the L in TULIP. For me, it was always the L of Limited Atonement that gave me trouble. I had no problem with TUIP. That is what allows many non-Calvinists to say they can agree to four points of Calvinism without being a full-fledged Calvinist. Many Arminians, including Lutherans, Baptists, Pentecostals, and Methodists, could accept TUIP with the L of Limited Atonement.
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Kevin
Here’s my “Current” take on
Predestination – Free Will
A topic that has caused many
problems and divisions for believers.
Do Calvinists and Armenians
really believe what they teach?
Can’t we find scriptures that point to both?
…Choose you this day who you will serve.
Joshua 24:15
No man can come to me,
except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
John 6:44
Doesn’t it seem that those who believe
it’s “either – or,” and only see one option,
have some questions to overcome?
1 – If “Predestination” is the only correct option
and an adversary believes in,
defends and teaches “Free Will:”
Then did God “Predestine” them
to believe in “Free Will?”
For how could they believe in “Free Will” unless
God “Predestined” them to believe in “Free Will?”
2 – If “Free Will” is the only correct option
and an adversary believes in,
defends and teaches “Predestination:”
Then did God give them a “Free Will”
to choose “Predestination?”
For how could they believe in “Predestination”
unless God gave them a “Free Will”
to choose “Predestination?”
So where is the argument?
When Wesley preached, people realized,
they could choose to follow Christ.
When Calvin preached, people realized,
they were chosen to follow Christ.
Peace…
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